All thoughts on Decomp - KC

Something I have been researching about here......give me a moment because I am going to throw a thousand thoughts out.

Supposedly, from what I read, KC got Caylee out of the car around the 18th or the 22nd or something like that, I cannot remember the dates, I think Oak Ridge (whomever) said the decomp in the car was like 2.56 days (estimate). That being said, in theory, KC had Caylee in her truck driving around for approx 2.56 days and then placed her someplace else or moved her somehow because the fluid that leaked in the car was 2.56 ?? days. ok, when reading the autopsy reports or something, this I cannot recall either, it reads there was grave wax on the papertowels that were found in her trunk. I read up about grave wax and it takes approximately a month for this to start processing.

All said ---- if Casey did get Caylee out of the trunk in 2.56 days (or timeframe) then she would have had to have put Caylee in that bag at some point after the 2.56 days had passed or grave wax would not have had time to process yet - This is confusing to me as I send it to you and if Caylee died on the 16th then how would grave wax had time to process by the time Casey dropped the car off at Amscott? Because we already are aware that cholorform is created when a body decomposes in an oxygen deprived area w/ excessive heat. Since grave wax (adipocere) is a process of decomp I am assuming this process was also speeded up, but grave wax could not happen in 2.56 days. I have to look into this more deeply.

I suppose my point to this entire paragraph is that we all have our theories and I have never been able to put a whole one together but this evidience/discovery for me assures me that somehow Caylee was in the trunk, moved, she at one point was around/in that garbage bag w/ those papertowels after 2.56 days. Does this make sense what I am saying? That bag had touched/was exposed to Caylee, I am going to guess, at least 2 weeks or 3 after Caylee had died. It is possible Caylee was in one place and then moved to another right before the car was abandoned? I still have yet to gain a full grasp of what I am even trying to say.

LET ME SAY THIS - my assumption is based on only what I have read and seen so far. Certainly as more evidence is released I may change my thoughts.

Anyhow, what are your thoughts on this?
P.S. forgive my spelling and bad english - Just trying to get my thoughts out quick before I lost them.

With today being Caylee's birthday 8/9/2009 I am combing through our threads and found this one. It was very hot in June of 2008 and Caylee was in that trunk for 2 days or so. It is very possible grave wax was beginning. It is also possible that Caylee's lifeless body was moved more than once. When the trial starts and the real evidence is presented we will all be sickened with the details. Just imagine with what we have already seen the evidence and testimony that will come out during the trial.

L,
thanks for your thoughts. I suppose I am too detailed about things.

lv

I think Casey was moving Caylee's body from the trunk to the abandoned house. I do not think she dumped her body until around the 23rd or 24th of July. So, that would be a good week. Combine this with the heat and grave wax could have easily started.

Could it be that her body leaked bodily fluids into the trunk. It was these fluids that turned into gravewax? She then tried to clean the area, hence gravewax on the paper towel? :idk:

You folks are right to ask these good questions, I agree with lindaMarie, we will be sickened at the evidence presented in court...
warped, bet she hid her in a closet...If so, LE would have found leaking bodily fluids.
Pardon my stupidity, what is grave wax? Is it like garbage sludge from a garbage truck?? Or do the bodily fluids actually get like wax as the body beaks down?? :idk:

cherylz wrote:Could it be that her body leaked bodily fluids into the trunk. It was these fluids that turned into gravewax? She then tried to clean the area, hence gravewax on the paper towel? :idk:

Cheryl, you have a valid point about the paper towel...

I believe the grave wax was found on paper towels that had apparently been used to try to clean up the stain. The paper towels were part of the trash from Tony's apartment (? - going off memory, here) and that bag was the one the tow car manager threw away at the tow place. If so, the paper towels had the body fluids on them for 28 or so days and could result in grave wax as it hardened (sorry for being so graphic).

It is a guess that KC moved the body and that caused a break in the bag that was holding the body (and the fluid leak). The decomp showed that at the time the fluid leaked into the carpet, the body had been dead for 2.6 days. The body was removed at that time - OR was re-bagged so that no fluids leaked after that.

I am sickened to think she could have re-bagged the corpse and then continued on driving with it in the trunk. Maybe that is what caused her to toss it away, but with each new dump, I am sickened again.

I wrote this based on memory and have not gone back to check the info. If there's anything I overlooked, feel free to correct it.

Wrapitup wrote:I think Casey was moving Caylee's body from the trunk to the abandoned house. I do not think she dumped her body until around the 23rd or 24th of July. So, that would be a good week. Combine this with the heat and grave wax could have easily started.

It is the only thing that makes sense in my mind. What I can't comprehend is KC moving her sweet little baby girl's dead body around like that. How could she?

We are not maniacal like Casey. I agree with you, Georgiamom. Can you imagine the heat inside a trunk in Florida in August inside garbage bags??

wrap... idon't even want to go there... too sad!

I have not forgotten any of you. Been busy. I promise to get back and read the thread as soon as I get a chance.
lv

ladyjustice37 wrote:I have not forgotten any of you. Been busy. I promise to get back and read the thread as soon as I get a chance.
lv

Well, lady..you damned well better..you started it!!!!! You crack me up!! :lol!:

"it smells like a dead body in the damned car!"

Wrapitup wrote:I think Casey was moving Caylee's body from the trunk to the abandoned house. I do not think she dumped her body until around the 23rd or 24th of July. So, that would be a good week. Combine this with the heat and grave wax could have easily started.

What abandonded house do you speak of? I have no knowledge of this? Are you sure on your dates of July 23rd or 24th? June maybe?

Linda also,
I am going to do more research on this grave wax. I so understand the heat would have caused decomp to intensify so this certainly must be a part of the grave wax also.

cherylz wrote:Could it be that her body leaked bodily fluids into the trunk. It was these fluids that turned into gravewax? She then tried to clean the area, hence gravewax on the paper towel? :idk:

Not sure, but I will keep this in mind while re-searching.

Wrapitup wrote:

ladyjustice37 wrote:I have not forgotten any of you. Been busy. I promise to get back and read the thread as soon as I get a chance.
lv

Well, lady..you damned well better..you started it!!!!! You crack me up!! :lol!:

Oh you admin person w/ personality ---------- I have just had time to glance not research. Off to do some work :blowing bubble

HEADS UP - DO NOT READ IF YOU GET SICK EASY 20-50 days

Butyric fermentation - Body is flat, flesh is removed, body dried out, mold forms where contacts ground, cheesy smell. Grave Wax starts at 30 days in absence of insects

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HEADS UP - DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU GET SICK AT THINGS - I GET A BIT DETAILED.

With this information and knowing that the decomp in the back of the car had been there for approx 2.5/6 days per forensics reports. One must note the types of tissue breakdown that was also discovered in this type of stain that was found. (I cannot remember specifics, sorry) IMH personal opionion..............

a body was in the car for at least 2.5/6 days in an enclosed area such as bag in which it was very hot and in an oxygen deprived area. This type of environment increases the speed of decomp. Gravewax being a part of decomp, I am with the conclusion w/ all evidence that I have read that this process was increased in speed also. I do not think that gravewax was produced in 2.5/6 days. I think the body was moved/touched/tampered w/ after 2.5/6 days, which left the stain on the trunk/carpet. The body must have been 'rebagged' and placed back in the trunk (for how long, I do not know) and then the grave wax could start into a major process.

Anyhow, thats my thoughts ........

ladyjustice37,

what an interesting thread, I have really learned alot about gravewax & bodily fluids.

I agree, Caylee was in the trunk for 2.56, re-bagged then probably moved. I thought that Caylee had been moved to the backyard because the cadaver dogs hit in the backyard. The thought of Caylee in a closed bag (which generated more heat) in the trunk of KC's car just sickens me.

My thoughts: How in the world is BOZO/team going to try to convince ANYONE that someone else did this to Caylee, then put her in KC's trunk to leak fluids, & then DUMP her little body?

Art,
So glad you enjoyed. I like the details of things. It somehow always proves a point. heeheh. Anyhow, I still question if the body was ever in the back yard. I have read many theories on this and I am still pondering on this myself.

Not sure about Baez and what his theory might be. I must add, it depends on what the jury is allowed to see and what knowledge they are given. (current death penalty case where I live and the judge has thrown out specific DNA samples----- JURY will never hear/see it)

lv

ladyjustice,

Consider this:

CA tried to clean KC's trunk upon picking it up at towing company. CA washed decomp pants. CA used a SHOP VAC to clean KC's trunk, then, dumped water & contents into the backyard. ANY decomp vacuumed up, even diluted with water, the dogs would hit on.

It is just one theory on why the dogs hit in the backyard but it made sense to me, especially since Caylee probably was never moved there.

artnut12345 wrote:ladyjustice,

Consider this:

CA tried to clean KC's trunk upon picking it up at towing company. CA washed decomp pants. CA used a SHOP VAC to clean KC's trunk, then, dumped water & contents into the backyard. ANY decomp vacuumed up, even diluted with water, the dogs would hit on.

It is just one theory on why the dogs hit in the backyard but it made sense to me, especially since Caylee probably was never moved there.

good point :roll:

yeah, im convinced the yard smell was from cleaning something whatever it was, shovel or shoes or whatever. i dont think she tried putting the body there at all no.

Lady, when Dominic Casey searched for Caylee in November, he was also tipped off to search an abandoned house, which he did. Here is one of many articles:

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Thanks Wrap - did not know about this.

Grave Wax: This is the first time I have heard this term. Did a bit of google grave wax searching myself. Two things jumped out at me.
(1)Corpses of infants and overweight persons are particularly prone to adipocere transformation. Adipocere formation begins within a month of death, and in the absence of air it can persist for centuries.^[1] An exposed, infested body or a body in a warm environment is unlikely to form deposits of adipocere.
and from another site
(2)
For a body to decompose quickly and fully, it needs oxygen to be present, and a little moisture (but not too much).

Is there any chance Caylee's remains may have been in some sort of refrigeration for a period of time? As in once the odor started, maybe she was frozen for a period before being dumped in the woods? Also, I am at a loss about the abandoned house. Where was this located and what is the significance of this house in the investigation?

Marica wrote:Is there any chance Caylee's remains may have been in some sort of refrigeration for a period of time? As in once the odor started, maybe she was frozen for a period before being dumped in the woods? Also, I am at a loss about the abandoned house. Where was this located and what is the significance of this house in the investigation?

I do not think Caylee was put in a freezer or a refrigerator. Casey (IMO) had no refrigerator available to her that would have that much space. She was basically living out of her car in between staying with Tony or Amy.

Dominic Casey was told (we are not sure from whom but my guess would be either Lee or Baez) about an abandoned house in which DC searched and Jim Hoover filmed the search.

It is right around the corner from the Ant's. The man who owns the houses last name happens to be "Gonzalez." The woman who lives next to the abandoned houses first name is "Zenaida." Caylee's body was found in the woods parallel and in between those two homes. We, at this point, do not know if the abandoned house is significant in the case as the State has said nothing about it. However, I do believe that LE searched that abandoned house w/a fine-tooth comb and it MAY be a card they are keeping close to the vest.

I do not agree with Brad Conway on this video w/Geraldo, but here it is:

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You can go here to read about the house and the significance of where Caylee was found in conjunction to "Gonzalez" and "Zenaida's" homes.

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And here is a very interesting thread I just found:

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I wasn't able to read all of teh info on the sites posted here.. but read a lot of it. I would say, that using the names of the two neighbors would be a way of being sure not to mess up when talking to LE. Sounds very logical to me that she came up with a way of being able to keep her story striaght. The between 1 & 9 ... at first that sounded off... but then when you think about it, that makes sense too. I guess I was sort of thrown with the "CODE SPEAK" phrase. This makes a LOT of sense. One of the things that has always bothered me about these people is their talk of a "NANNY". Just HOW could a single, unemployed mother afford a Nanny? And how could cindy NOT be aware of whom was caring for Caylee?

Leonard Padilla was on Blog Talk Radio today. He said that he thinks Casey drowned Caylee in the pool. He said the combination of urine from a diaper and the pool chemicals would turn into chloroform.

I don't know if I buy this theory..although at some point (I think after death from an OD on xanax and/or taping her mouth and placing her in a hot vehicle or trunk) she asphyxiated. I do think Casey put her in the pool to make it look like a drowning (thus, the pool ladder was by the pool as Cindy has stated). Casey (IMO) realized the autopsy would not show a drowning (remember the rush of calls Casey placed to her family on June 16th??) so she originally placed her behind the pool where the dogs hit. She then put Casey in her car trunk and probably moved her to and from her trunk to the abandoned house until around June 23rd which I believe was the 1st time she ran out of gas right on Suburban Drive. W/in that week..between the decomp & the heat, grave wax set in. It would also explain the chloroform LP talked about.

This is only my theory and always subject to change.

I always kept an open mind to the pool theory until Maura stated the weather report on that day during those hours. Apparantly there were thunderstorms that afternoon.

wrapitup,

I agree with you on LP's theory as to how Caylee died.

Cherylz, unless it was lightening, it is warm in FLA. & Caylee could have still been put in the pool to stage her death. As a child, we used to love to water SKI in light rain, just for fun. IMO, KC panicked, I don't think the rain would have prevented her from trying to make it look like a drowning, she wanted it to look like an accident to her parents, jmo.

I too, could change my opinion, I am always open to new info, I think at trial we will know EXACTLY how Caylee died & what KC did to cover it up,jmo.

Wrapitup wrote:Leonard Padilla was on Blog Talk Radio today. He said that he thinks Casey drowned Caylee in the pool. He said the combination of urine from a diaper and the pool chemicals would turn into chloroform.

I don't know if I buy this theory..although at some point (I think after death from an OD on xanax and/or taping her mouth and placing her in a hot vehicle or trunk) she asphyxiated. I do think Casey put her in the pool to make it look like a drowning (thus, the pool ladder was by the pool as Cindy has stated). Casey (IMO) realized the autopsy would not show a drowning (remember the rush of calls Casey placed to her family on June 16th??) so she originally placed her behind the pool where the dogs hit. She then put Casey in her car trunk and probably moved her to and from her trunk to the abandoned house until around June 23rd which I believe was the 1st time she ran out of gas right on Suburban Drive. W/in that week..between the decomp & the heat, grave wax set in. It would also explain the chloroform LP talked about.

This is only my theory and always subject to change.

The medical examiner said the tape was put on prior to death. I am sure there is way they know that. I stand by my theory she was drugged, her little mouth and nose covered in duct tape then thrown in the trunk to die.

lindamarie,

that too, is also a plausible theory. There is, imo, no end to the RAGE KC feels for CA.

As far as the gravewax is concerned it can happen really fast in hot condtions. It is possible in my mind that Caylee's little body was moved more than once.

I dont think as prissy and stuck up as Casey Anthony appears to be, that she would have wanted to handle her daughters corpse. I dont think she moved her more than she had to, and i think she only moved her once.

sassybtsweet wrote:I dont think as prissy and stuck up as Casey Anthony appears to be, that she would have wanted to handle her daughters corpse. I dont think she moved her more than she had to, and i think she only moved her once.

In some manner I can understand what you are saying, in a different way I think-- cold hearted people/killers/etc will do whatever is necessary to save themselves.

She may have not moved her more than once but I firmly believe the papertowels in the back of the car were exposed to the body after 2.5/6 days. I can only assume maybe after the body was moved then maybe there was a visit or something. People for some reason like to do that. I just do not think gravewax happened in 2.5/6 days.

cherylz wrote:I always kept an open mind to the pool theory until Maura stated the weather report on that day during those hours. Apparantly there were thunderstorms that afternoon.

Cherylz, there are thunderstorms every day in the Summer in Florida. But, they only last for about an hour or so.

Can you imagine the problems the jury is going have following along with all of this? The body farm said 2.5 days is how long a dead body was in that car. Yet there is paper towels with grave wax.

Yes, Linda Marie. I agree. The tape was put on before death. That is what I am saying. She gave her xanax (and probably not the first time) and taped her mouth. Not sure about the nose. She died and she stuck her in the pool.

Sassy, I believe that Casey would have moved her body from the trunk to say..the abandoned house only because the smell of decomp was overpowering and she knew others would be able to smell it. Thus, the paper towels and the cleaning solution that was found in the trunk.

lindamarie wrote:Can you imagine the problems the jury is going have following along with all of this? The body farm said 2.5 days is how long a dead body was in that car. Yet there is paper towels with grave wax.

That is an estimation from the body farm. I think it was longer. Just MOO!!

Wrapitup wrote:

lindamarie wrote:Can you imagine the problems the jury is going have following along with all of this? The body farm said 2.5 days is how long a dead body was in that car. Yet there is paper towels with grave wax.

That is an estimation from the body farm. I think it was longer. Just MOO!!

L, very good point -- added with that the average juror is not clinging to a computer looking up grave wax, decomp - how long it takes per each to occur, etc. You are so right about the confusion.

W, Great point, estimate from the body farm - other think is here if it is new science it is going to be tough to get a jury to buy it along w/ the complication of each aspect.

I love this thread ,,,,, thought provoking.

oh hell, wrap, you triggered my brain. It never dawned on me the body could have been there longer.
suggestion - body in car, in bag - at 2.5 days, the bag is torn or rolls over in the trunk for whatever reason, fluid leaks out, the body is re-bagged/contained once more and then---- the body could have certainly been in there past 2.5 days. We would never have a way of knowing. Ah, interesting thought.
and note to add: this being the case it is clear (as mud) how grave wax could develope earlier than in one month, because of the conditions.

I remember back a year ago this being debated. I remember reading that the hot Florida conditions could turn a deceased body to bones in 9 days. I hope that the body farm evidence holds because they are the ones that determined the chemical of human decomposition was in that trunk. I don't think we want to debate that.

lindamarie wrote:I remember back a year ago this being debated. I remember reading that the hot Florida conditions could turn a deceased body to bones in 9 days. I hope that the body farm evidence holds because they are the ones that determined the chemical of human decomposition was in that trunk. I don't think we want to debate that.

FYI,
not debating what the body farm says but only they gave us only what they have, if that makes sense, and yes hot weather can make a big difference on decompositon.

This discussion about the graves wax & how long Caylee was in the trunk & how many times she was moved is what L K Baden will PICK TO DEATH until our heads explode. L K Baden will have to have a BELIEVABLE theory, & the state also will have their experts. I am not worried about L K Baden, but, I dread the OVERLOAD of nit picking.

IMO, the STATE ATTORNEY's have the answers we want, but unfortunately, IMO, I don't they will NOT be released until trial. BOZO has been given the evidence, BUT, imo, this information is too prejudicial & will not be released to us in a doc dump.

We will have to be patient. I think I can make it.

I am hoping that by this time next year, Casey has been sentenced to at least life in prison!!!!!!!!!