Lisa Irwin, still missing in Kansas City, MO

artgal16 wrote:Thanks to Jeanne we also now have a motive to hide a body in case of an accidental death - money again - Debbie stands a lot to lose if she even had to admit to an accidental death. What is this about not paying the phone bills - first I have heard of it. Anyone have a link?

When this investigation first started they..rumor...I guess said that the baby and three cell phones had been taken. Mommy said the cell phones did not work because she didn't pay the cell phone bill.

I would have to go way back in time to find all the links for that one. Lets just say "rumor".

I have never seen the LE work so hard to find a baby girl. I am amazed at where they have searched and what they have done.

Honestly I think a lot of both men and women hung their heads with sorrow knowing little Caylee Anthony decomposed just down the street from where she lived.

That was a shame a lot of LE said...never again.

They are looking for this baby with their hearts.

Jeanne, I completely agree with you. I wish they would do the same for the Lunsford girl.

Will we ever know what happened to her, to Celina, to HaLeigh, to Hailey, to Trenton, Brittannee, and on and on and on and on......

Something kept bothering me and tonight I figured out what it was. Baby Lisa is a tall baby girl. Looking at her picture taken in the door with the little leopard skin dress on she is very tall.

When you look at her crib it seems like the mattress is not lowered enough for her.

I think she was unattended and fell out of that crib.

You make a good point. She is the same age as my little Reid. Everytime I think of that, it sends shivers up my spine.

Reid would easily fall out of that crib and I bet little Lisa did, too. Maybe she fell out.."Tot Mom" was drunk and Lisa broke her neck and she and someone else she was drinking with buried her body. OMG, just the thought.

Jeanne, OMG, I never thought of the falling out of the bed scenario!!! looking at that picture you posted up thread brought me to a stand still....

I know for a fact, my babies were definitely at least standing in their cribs by 8-10 months TOPS.... I would have lowered their crib as soon as they started trying to stand up or even push up and roll over....

I have been back and forth since day one about what to think with this case, but this point you just prooved, I am seriously putting the "fall out of bed" scenario in place!!!

From one way it does look like the mattress is at the top of the bumper pad because of the items piled on it. However, I don't know if the mattress would fit in the crib with the bumper pad around the sides like that. If you look at the bottom of the bumper pad it looks like that is the top of the mattress and if so that is probably as low as the mattress will go. ??????

The question I would have about that scenario is the same with any accident, WHY would she not call 911? It would be hard to say she was negligent in that case, if the baby just fell out of the crib........

I never thought of that! OMG I hope not!
It's hard for me to tell where the mattress is because of the bumper guards. When Sebastian's mattress was lowered all the way down his bumper guards gave the illusion that the mattress was higher than it was. I just pray this is the case with baby Lisa.....
I'm like Mommy, I go back and forth on this case not knowing what to think but her falling out of that crib does make sense. I shudder to even think about it.

Laga we were thinking the same thing at the same time!
IF the baby died how could a drunk Debbie hide her so well? Unless she wasn't drunk....

Or unless she doesn't remember!!!!

raine1953 wrote:Laga we were thinking the same thing at the same time!
IF the baby died how could a drunk Debbie hide her so well? Unless she wasn't drunk....

That's what I've been saying all along upthread. No matter what evidence LE finds she could blame it on a blackout and say she doesn't remember a damn thing. That might get her less time if she's convicted of something to do with the disappearance or death of Lisa.

She does profess too much her drunkenness for me, sounds more like a defense strategy. Why does she need to defend herself, IDK. The father knows, too much looking down and swallowing hard when he softly utters a few words.

I agree, NEVER would I put stuff in my babies bed especially if he/she were missing and I expected her to come home. BJ, I do remember now that you have been talking about the drinking from the time Debbie said she was drunk. It definitely could be in her head that being drunk and in a black out could help her later on. Makes me sick to even think about this.

When Jeremy Irwin returned home from work in the early morning hours of Oct. 4, he found his fiancée, Debbie Bradley, and two sons asleep.

But when he peeked in on then 10-month-old daughter Lisa, her light was on and the crib was empty.

That, Irwin tells PEOPLE in this week's cover story, "is when all hell broke loose."

Since little Lisa's strange disappearance two weeks ago, investigators have been struggling to determine exactly what happened to the bubbly girl whose family called her "Pumpkin Pie."

RELATED: Parents 'Had Nothing to Do' with Baby Lisa's Disappearance, Says Lawyer


The spotlight has fallen on Irwin, 29, and Bradley, 25, who says she volunteered to take a lie detector test but that when she took it she was "terrified and nervous and worried about my daughter. They told me I failed."

"We have absolutely nothing to hide," says Bradley. "Let them search all they want, but do not take the focus off finding my daughter."

For much more on the Baby Lisa story, pick up this week's issue of PEOPLE, on newsstands Friday

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That would be another accident made to look like something else...an abduction or.....

WHY, why would she not call 911 if the baby fell out of the crib? At almost 11 months old, I suspect if the baby tried to get out of the crib and fell, it would be highly unlikely she would be killed. She would try to catch herself I would imagine.

This case is certainly a puzzle, I don't know what could have happened, but I think the mother and father both know....I do not think it was a murder (ala kc). So maybe she is alive somewhere........

She is a cross between Misty and TMLS IMHO.

Something had bothered me for a long time and it was last evening when I had that realization it might be the crib.

I am not sure those are bumper pads in that crib. I am thinking there is a dust ruffle on the bottom and then the mattress...no bumper pads but we would all need a better..clearer picture to decide.

Of course my imagination is running wild with what might have happened. Being drunk is being stupid. Perhaps the baby fell out of the crib during that 6:40 to 4am time slot. Perhaps she broke her neck in the fall. Just because thousands of babies fall from cribs and live does not mean some don't die????

I need to see a clear picture of that crib to determine if there was bumper pads or just the mattress. Sometimes by that age the pads are removed. I am thinking they are put in the crib for small babies so they don't harm their heads but large babies can pretty much move about.

As far as what could have happened...One drunk mother and a neighbor tipping with her. What do they say about stupid?

Perhaps hubby didn't find an empty crib? Maybe he found a dead baby?

Why didn't they call 911...I donno. Why didn't Casey call 911 when Caylee drowned?????

The reason I even brought this up was because it was an itch and I had to scratch it.

By the way. I don't think the parents piled those things in the crib. I think that was done by investigators. MOO

Ok I found the crib pictures and there is a bumper pad all around the mattress. I still say that mattress was not low enough for this tall child.

She could have tumbled out of that bed and broke her neck.

Wonder what two drunk women with a housefull of kids would do???

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If it was an accident as I believe also then if its not reported its because they just have too much to lose =fear and panic set in. She wasnt divorced she was receiving financial aid in all probability - she was drunk but maybe not falling down drunk - just buzzed and she realized that when she reported it they could tell right away she had been drinking -she could lose custody of her kids and maybe Jeremy would leave her - so she covered it up.

I cant watch the video you posted,but from the still picture posted farther up. I zoomed in and agree there is a bumper pad but to me it looks like it is around the matress not above it like normal.That makes the mattress pretty high in my opinion.

Joe Tacopina, who is now multitasking both as the high-profile legal counsel for Jeremy Irwin and Deborah Bradley and also talking head to the national news agencies, was on FOX yesterday coming live to you from New York City, where Lisa has not been spotted, to slam the Kansas City Police Department…then he kind of ran over his own short block and we got the newest version of the events of the night Lisa disappeared.

“run over your own short block” - a colloquialism referring to the lights turning green, you gouging on that big bitch, Bubba, and straight off the starting line the engine mounts snap and your short block engine drops to the drag strip. Everything past that is kind out of your control…but it’s garanteed you’re not winning this race.

While the KCPD and other agencies spent almost the entire day at the Irwin house where 10-month-old Lisa Irwin disappeared on the night of October 3rd/4th, Joe Tacopina, benefactored high-profile lawyer to the parents of Lisa, castigated KCPD stating they needed to “stop whining” and get out there and find Lisa. He obviously missed the memo for these activities that have gone on, almost non-stop, in KCPD’s efforts to find Lisa:

■October 4th, approximately 100 KCPD and KCFD along with FBI conducted searches in Northland woods and at landfill, grid searches, neighborhood surveys, rappelled down 100 ft cliffs, searched on horseback.
■October 5th, Command Center with 30 to 40 detectives, FBI with search dogs, discussions with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children to get advice.
■October 6th, around 300 investigators from multiple agencies now involved in search. Investigators search a heavily wooded area , sewers (literally down in them! ), and an industrial park. Parents call off any more talks with KCPD. KCPD states the parents have stopped cooperating. We now know parents got a lawyer after this and never had another “unrestricted” conversation after this date.
■October 7th, FBI searching landfill second time, detectives using metal detectors in yard of Irwin residence. Debbie spends her time in interviews talking about how she flunked a lie detector test and how the police are treating her as a suspect. Parents state they are still cooperating.
■October 8th, parents speak with KCPD but limit their responses only to specific questions. (They now have a lawyer.) Parents state they are scaling back their media interviews and focusing and generating a suspect list and tip list.
■October 9th, KCPD return to Irwin home and continue searches. KCPD try to re-enact an entry into the Irwin home through the computer window. Family and friends of the Irwins pass out flyers at the Kansas Speedway.
■October 10th, KCPD search backyard of Irwin home again. Spent time in next-door neighbor’s house. Grand jury sends out subpoenas to 4 local news agencies requesting footage of parents’ interviews.
■October 11th, a cistern at a nearby abandoned house is pumped out and KCFD personnel are lowered down in cistern to search for any clues of missing baby Lisa. Ashley Irwin, Jeremy’s sister, in a Good Morning America interview, states that Deborah is preparing to be arrested and makes a claim the KCPD is trying to pin this on Debbie because they don’t have leads. KCPD replies (in a real “non-whiney voice” ) they don’t feel pressure to pin anything on anybody, but do feel a lot of pressure to find a 10-month-old missing baby.
■October 12th, more than a dozen investigators, with search dogs and ATVs search a wooded area near 36th Street and North Brighton Avenue. Bill Stanton, a “private investigator” from New York, announces he’s been hired by a wealthy benefactor to do something…not sure what, and help the parents.
■October 13th, investigators with search dogs spent the afternoon searching an area near Missouri 210. Stanton gets lots of mic time and spends time with each parent in the backyard where the parents are staying.
■October 14th, FBI searches woods near Irwin home. Stanton announces wealthy benefactor is offering $100,000 for the return of baby Lisa.
■October 15th, investigators search abandoned house where it is reported soiled diapers, baby wipes and a backpack are found.
■October 16th, 25 members of the Missouri National Guard along with members of surrounding law enforcement agencies, join the KCPD investigators and the FBI in an all-day ground search for baby Lisa. Shoulder-to-shoulder searches are conducted in multiple locations. Jeremy and Debbie spend the day giving back-to-back interviews with several national media outlets. Debbie reveals she was drunk on the night baby Lisa went missing. Story of that night changes drastically.
■October 17th, investigators with dogs search an area along a creek by Chouteau Elementary. The KC water department is brought in to divert and pump out a section of the creek. Investigators with dogs also return to the Irwin home. Joe Tacopina shows up in KC and says he’s going to represent the Irwins, courtesy of the wealthy benefactor with a “connection to the family”….jets back out same day.
■October 18th, investigators and crime scene technicians search an area at 34th Terrace and North Brighton Avenue. Law enforcement work a tip of a possible sighting of baby Lisa with 2 women in Kansas. It turns out to be a false sighting.
■October 19th, investigators execute search warrant for Irwin home. Spend entire day at house with search dogs and an arson unit utilizing specialized equipment.
Joe Tacopina…exactly what day since October 4th did the KCPD take a day off and not look for baby Lisa? Unlike your “clients” they have not yet announced they need to take a day off from participating in the investigation of this missing child so “they can rest”. STFD and STFU, Joe.

And then he said too much.

This is when Joe ran over his short block (or maybe his clients’ short block). He said, he’s been speaking with them, multiple times a day, for a week and a half. He said, he’s had investigators in Kansas City for about 2 weeks.

Oh wait, said the FOX interviewer, does that mean Jeremy and Deborah lied to Megyn Kelly on Sunday when they told her they had no need to get an attorney?

No, no, no Joe crawfishes backward. I came in “officially” on Monday.

*blink blink*

So, did they unofficially lie, Joe?

No, no, no….”they are simple, sweet people”…”intelligent, but simple”.

Simple Simon had a lie-man who went to bat on air, anytime the heat was on, you would find him there!

You’ve been their lawyer for almost 2 weeks Joe. Stop it. I mean really, stop it. Your clients are liars, we’ve been watching, this is just another thing they will look an interviewer straight in the face and lie about. They’ve had legal counsel since just after October 6th. They gave only restricted answers to specific questions from KCPD on October 8th and were not participating fully. Just stop it, Joe. You’re looking silly.

About this time the back axle hit the block laying on the drag strip pavement…(following exchange paraphrased)…

Interviewer: People are having a hard time understanding why the parents never called those missing cell phones. Can you explain why they wouldn’t at least try the phones to see if they could hear them ringing, etc.

Joe Taco: They didn’t have their phones…duh! “They went to the neighbor’s house and had that call effectuated immediately.” (Throws in, Debbie on floor trembling and screaming.)

Uhhhh…Joe, in Version 3.0 your clients said that Jeremy made the 911 call with his work cell phone that was in his pocket.

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jeanne1807 wrote: Why didn't they call 911...I donno. Why didn't Casey call 911 when Caylee drowned?????

Sorry, you all know me, I gotta answer this one.......Because Caylee DID NOT drown!

I agree as well, Caylee did not drown. If the grand jury is hearing evidence then perhaps they will arrest her without finding the body. I know that the police do not believe Debbie.

jeanne1807 wrote: Perhaps hubby didn't find an empty crib? Maybe he found a dead baby?

Okay this is really far fetched, but when I read this comment it just popped into my head that maybe Jeremy found a dead Lisa (because of God knows what) and did something with the body and didn't tell Deborah. We don't know for sure that the two of them are telling each other everything about what happened that night.

He is surely trying to keep from telling something, watch how he swallows hard before he speaks.....I think he knows something about what happened.

laga wrote:He is surely trying to keep from telling something, watch how he swallows hard before he speaks.....I think he knows something about what happened.

I agree! But what confuses me is why did he pass the polygraph and Debbie didn't when they were asked do you know where the baby is?

The other thing we dont know is - when was the last time anyone other than Jeremy and Debbie saw Lisa?
Debbie is smart enough to know there are cameras
at the grocery store and that she bought baby food and wipes but what if that was all staged? She is clever and from what I read about her background
she has a very bad background with lots of problems in her family with drinking and also criminal activities.

We still haven't heard who was with the 6 and 8 yr olds when Lisa was at the store buying wine and baby wipes.
Everything that both parents have said so far could be a lie and everything they've done, staged.

artgal16 wrote:The other thing we dont know is - when was the last time anyone other than Jeremy and Debbie saw Lisa?
Debbie is smart enough to know there are cameras
at the grocery store and that she bought baby food and wipes but what if that was all staged? She is clever and from what I read about her background
she has a very bad background with lots of problems in her family with drinking and also criminal activities.

I thought about that too. I just don't see a murder, I don't see an accident covered up, I don't see a stranger abduction, the only thing left is a staged abduction/baby hidden away plot to somehow get money.

But the image of that crib is very relevant because that mattress is way too high - unless it was brought up higher after she went missing. A child standing
could topple over and break her neck.

janie wrote:

laga wrote:He is surely trying to keep from telling something, watch how he swallows hard before he speaks.....I think he knows something about what happened.

I agree! But what confuses me is why did he pass the polygraph and Debbie didn't when they were asked do you know where the baby is?

When did Jeremy take a polygraph?

artgal16 wrote:But the image of that crib is very relevant because that mattress is way too high - unless it was brought up higher after she went missing. A child standing
could topple over and break her neck.

Thank you artgal. That was like a bee buzzing in my bonnet. Something I could not put my finger on. That mattress was too high for that tall baby girl.

The picture of little Lisa in the door at her home with her brothers on each side when she was wearing her little leopard dress was the beginning.

I just could not figure it out and than...that mattress..too low.

laga wrote:

jeanne1807 wrote: Why didn't they call 911...I donno. Why didn't Casey call 911 when Caylee drowned?????

Sorry, you all know me, I gotta answer this one.......Because Caylee DID NOT drown!

Well a jury of twelve and two alternates think she did!

laga wrote:

artgal16 wrote:The other thing we dont know is - when was the last time anyone other than Jeremy and Debbie saw Lisa?
Debbie is smart enough to know there are cameras
at the grocery store and that she bought baby food and wipes but what if that was all staged? She is clever and from what I read about her background
she has a very bad background with lots of problems in her family with drinking and also criminal activities.

I thought about that too. I just don't see a murder, I don't see an accident covered up, I don't see a stranger abduction, the only thing left is a staged abduction/baby hidden away plot to somehow get money.

But they had to have money. She is an army wife with her husband deployed. She gets an allotment check, housing check and deployment pay.

Her live in is an Electrician.

Follow the money is one I have heard over and over. Are drugs involved in all of this. I wish some of the neighbors would sound off about what happened that night. Were cars dropping by. Somebody asked why the ladies didn't have their wine on the back deck.

Heck they wanted to be out in front. They didn't want to sit in a secluded spot in the back of the house.

Dont forget about the dog that didnt bark in the night!
This is about money I believe - if the child died as an accident while Debbie was drunk there would be huge repercussions for them - legal fees, loss of custody of the other children, custody battles, etc - she couldnt really afford to call it in as an accident if she was drunk the downside for her, at least in her mind, was all negative

proudjmmom wrote:

janie wrote:

laga wrote:He is surely trying to keep from telling something, watch how he swallows hard before he speaks.....I think he knows something about what happened.

I agree! But what confuses me is why did he pass the polygraph and Debbie didn't when they were asked do you know where the baby is?

When did Jeremy take a polygraph?

I'm sorry proudjmmom I thought they both had taken one the same day. That's what I get for presuming and not checking first!

Jeremey has not taken a polygraph - he wasnt given one only Lisa - now as he has lawyered up the lawyer wont let him take one Im sure.

Deborah Bradley, front, stands with Jeremy Irwin while in the lobby of a Hampton Inn hotel in Kansas City, Mo., Friday, Oct. 7, 2011. Bradley said in an interview Friday that she took a polygraph earlier this week after her baby, Lisa Irwin, disappeared from their Kansas City home. Bradley says police told her she failed the test. Lisa's father, Jeremy Irwin, said he has offered to take a lie detector test, but police said he did not have to.

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I am on a mission to investigate that neighborhood and any comments being made about them.

This is a rumor. Take it for what it is.

"Some one is floating some info about the neighbors next door.

If true, it's worth a "Hmmmmm". This was spoken about by Dr. Drew, not confirmed but seems confirmable: the neighbor's spouse, who has had some contention with one or both Irwin/Netz-Bradley, was booted from the house that day, not "allowed" to come home that night. He supposedly has some connection with the local PD.

Perhaps Deborah Bradley has the capacity to generate spite and ill-will in neighbors. Estranged spouses, moreover, will sometimes blame and punish a third party who is seen as interfering and getting in the way, or encouraging the other spouse to do things that negatively affect the estranged spouse.

I'd like to know more about that situation before taking it VERY seriously, police have taken things from that house too, but have not implicated anyone there.

In the cruel world, though, it's not beyond anything talked about on this forum for an angry guy to take revenge on people he thinks have thwarted him. "

Interesting Rumor

"My dh thinks LE should check for spetic tanks on property, he said it's possible they may have more than one, depending on when the home was built. Something else he said that caught my attention, some septic tank companies use metal detectors to locate them, (they can be anywhere on the property) spectic tanks have an iron steel rebar in the lids!! Is that what LE was using the metal detectors for?"

More rumors.

philip netz is listed as the owner of their house. ???

samantha brando, along with aubra & michael heller, is the "neighbor".
her pandora profile if it's the same one:

Samantha Brando Public Profile
Hometown: Kansas City MO | School: North Kansas City High School | Employer: Jani King I'm down to earth, 5 foot nothing, blond and totally act like one sometimes!!!!! Love to dance and singing, and make a total foul of myself!!!!! I love to laugh and have a good time!

also listed are a few other neighbors if someone wants to look into them...

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oh wait - i found it! looks like jeremy bought the house in 2002.

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here's one document - says he's unmarried:

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he borrowed $92,053.00 for the house.

here's another doc - Warranty of Deed - don't know what it means:

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Rumor...neighbors husband.

Her hubby isn't a police officer; he does electronic surveillance for Sprint.


Samantha the neighbors husband? Isn't that interesting...

His facebook lists this:

United States Air Force
Security Police/Security Forces · Jun 2002 to present

Here is a job description for what Samantha's husbands job requires

interesting...

snip:

Electronic Surveillance Technician,
Sprint | OVERLAND PARK, Kansas
Work Type Full time

Job Description

In this critical role of an Electronic Surveillance Technician, you will be responsible for ensuring compliance in this area, which includes 7x24 Law Enforcement Agency (LEA) hotlines used by LEAs for emergencies involving hostage situations, kidnappings and national emergencies. You will coordinate the receipt, processing and response to legal demands received from LEAs and courts for customer records, pen registers and wiretaps.



Your responsibilities will include analyzing law enforcement-generated court orders to determine completeness, assess validity and determine the nature and scope of the request. You will also assist in the implementation and maintenance of court ordered electronic surveillance (i.e. wiretap, pen-register, and trap and trace), handset location tracking a customer requested malicious call trace. You will provide appropriate data for billing law enforcement the cost of providing electronic surveillance. You may be required to provide after-hours call screening by handling non-emergency call requests as well as coordinate switch translation initiation for establishing electronic surveillance. You will report to a Supervisor


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So the story on the cell phones is that one wasnt paid
and was cut-off? She has money for cigarettes and wine but not to pay her cell phone bill? Im really starting to think that the trip to the market was staged.

the top of the adjustable rail at its highest position
must be at least 26 inches above the of the
mattress support at its lowest position
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I hate to beleaguer this point, because it is just my opinion, but I think the mattress is at its lowest point in that picture of the crib. If you blow the image up, you can see (in my opinion) the mattress top is at the bottom of the bumper pads. It is reported Lisa is 30 inches tall and weighs 26-30 lbs.

I highly doubt the FBI did NOT ask Jeremy to take a poly.

Investigators spend almost 17 hours searching inside Lisa Irwin home
By GLENN E. RICE

The Kansas City Star
Mike Ransdell

Investigators search Irwin home
Sixteen days in the Lisa Irwin case: A KC toddler is still missing

A team of police and federal investigators spent nearly 17 hours scouring the Northland residence of 11-month-old Lisa Irwin for clues in connection to her disappearance.

Capt. Steve Young said investigators and crime scene technicians completed their work around midnight. Young would not disclose what evidence was collected.

On Wednesday, police and federal agents returned to the home located in the 3600 block of North Lister Avenue around 8:30 a.m. to execute a search warrant.

Police have been in the house before but always with the family’s consent, Young said.

Investigators dressed in white protective suits spent all day and most of the evening working inside and outside the residence, as well as around a garage behind the home.

It appeared investigators used X-ray equipment, likely to examine walls, pipes and floor boards. Technicians poked through flower beds, gutters along the roof and even through a memorial located in the front yard. They were also seen carrying carpets out of the home.

However, no new developments have emerged overnight. Police are continuing their investigation into the disappearance, which was reported early Oct. 4

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