Lisa Irwin, still missing in Kansas City, MO

STEVE MOORE, FORMER FBI AGENT: Well, if you`ve got a cadaver dog hitting on human decomposition, it would indicate that there was a dead child in the room. Not somebody coming in snatching a child and taking it somewhere else.

The type of things that happen with a kidnapped child do not include killing them at the place you take them. It changes the character. It changes the entire thinking process of the investigation if you believe that the child died in the room.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: How long, if OK -- the affidavit says that they -- I`ll just read it. A positive hit for the hint of a deceased human in the area of the floor of Bradley`s bedroom near the bed. That`s where she said she was sleeping.

How long does it take for a body to develop the scent of death? How long if there was a body, if this hit is accurate, and I know there could be mistakes, but how long would it take for -- how long would the body have to be there?

MOORE: Jane, the studies I`ve looked at say that no dog has ever hit successfully on a scent where the body, where the person or the body had not been dead for an hour to an hour and 15 minutes. That`s the earliest threshold.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And usually?

MOORE: About three hours, they`re going to be fairly accurate.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. So whatever body was there, if I pray it`s not, but if it was this child there for probably at least an hour and 15 minutes, possibly three, maybe more.
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Laga, this is what commented on the above late last night but I was too tired to look for a link. I don't know if this is just Moore's opinion or if it really is the norm for a dog to hit on a place a body has been for 1.5 - 3 hours.

I just cant buy this hit. Who would leave a dead baby on the floor for any length of time? It doesnt make sense to me. Its just a confusing mess. I understand that Jeremy has owned this home for 10 years - is he really never going to go back to this house? Also Jeremy said that he couldnt call home because the cell phones didnt work but someone commented that Debbie said that they could receive calls but not send calls - anyone remember this?

artgal16 wrote:I just cant buy this hit. Who would leave a dead baby on the floor for any length of time? It doesnt make sense to me. Its just a confusing mess. I understand that Jeremy has owned this home for 10 years - is he really never going to go back to this house? Also Jeremy said that he couldnt call home because the cell phones didnt work but someone commented that Debbie said that they could receive calls but not send calls - anyone remember this?

Convenient that after that Deborah announces that the cell phones have “restricted service” and can’t make outgoing calls…I think I’ll wait until the KCPD tells me that’s true, if you don’t mind.

this is all I can find about the restricted calls....nothing in the "news".

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I remember reading that Debbie said they couldn't make outgoing calls Art, but I don't remember where I read it!

As far as the dogs hitting where they did, wasn't this Debbie's room? The only thing I could of is that if Debbie maybe rolled over on the baby and she fell to the floor and laid there deceased for a couple of hours then the dogs might hit on it. Likewise for Lisa's room. Otherwise I can't wrap my head around it either.

I bet she wouldn't be saying this IF she was a prosecutor!

"My understanding is that there are cold cases where dogs have hit on scents of decomposition that have been in the home for as long as 28 years," Cyndy Short said on "Good Morning America" on Saturday.

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OMG no, she'd be a fool to!

Yes Debbie said that they couldnt make outgoing calls but I thought it was reported that she could receive incoming calls. Did Jeremy say he didnt have his cell phone with him at work?

Thanks for looking, I have had no luck finding the detailed article I was looking for. It was actually on a website about cadaver dogs and sorta an everything you wanted to know. I think it was during the beginning of the anthony case. I am definitely sure NO DOUBT I remember when the cummings case was early and the dogs hit on the dumpster, some people said it could be from a used sanitary pad. The experts with cadaver dogs said that is NOT possible. They can hit on blood but not blood from person who was alive when the blood was spilled. I am certain about that. I also know I learned there is no way to tell how old the scent is or to identify the deceased.

I think the person in the above article posted by wrap who was on JVM, meant the person would have to be dead for at least one and a half hours before the scent could be detected by a cadaver dog, but I THINK I remember that website expert saying the scent was immediate. I know they said the body does not have to remain in the area for more than a minute or so before the scent to remain there and be picked up by the cadaver dogs.

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1:56 p.m. CDT, October 22, 2011
KANSAS CITY, Mo.—

The attorney representing the parents of Lisa Irwin said Saturday on a national news show that the cadaver dog "hit" referenced in the search warrant, could have other reasons, nothing to do with Lisa.

"My understanding is that there are cold cases where dogs have hit on scents of decomposition that had been in the home for as long as 28 years," Cyndy Short, with McCallister Law Firm, said to ABC's Good Morning America. "This is an old home, 63 years old. There could be a lot of other explanations for that," she said.

Nineteen days after 11-month old Lisa Irwin disappeared, Short also tried to clarify the reason Deborah Bradley told police she didn't look for her baby in the yard the night she disappeared.

"She was deathly afraid," Short said in the interview. "I think in that fear, not knowing what happened to that child, that she didn't want to find something in the backyard that might have been terrible."

On Sunday, Cyndy Short is scheduled to be interviewed by FOX 4. We will bring you a complete report from that interview on FOX 4 newscasts and FOX4KC.com.

Lisa disappeared October 4th. Police ask you to call the TIPS Hotline at 816-474-TIPS if you have any information helpful to the case.

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Now the lawyers and their spins on the truth...I am about all done in after Jose.

Can I take another one with their stories?

Just shoot me.

Some current pictures of Baby Lisa.

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Do you remember when George Anthony said he was afraid to look in the trunk of the car at the tow yard.
Im sure Debbie following the Anthony case. I have come to the conclusion that Debbie is a manipulator like Casey - I dont believe the tears she turns on and off and I too am sick to death of ambulance chasing lawyers looking to cash in on these types of cases. It used to be you got a lawyer after you were arrested.

I agree with you; however, I am not at all convinced she killed her daughter. I think it was an accident and she hid the body...who does that sound like?

This case also reminds me of our little HaLeigh.

Yes I agree wrap I dont think she murdered the child but to hide a body isnt the first thing 99 percent of the population thinks of when there is an accident - they would call 911. So in what circumstances does a mother whose child has died NOT call 911.

artgal16 wrote:Yes I agree wrap I dont think she murdered the child but to hide a body isnt the first thing 99 percent of the population thinks of when there is an accident - they would call 911. So in what circumstances does a mother whose child has died NOT call 911.

I'd like to take a shot at that one. Perhaps when she is drunk out of her mind.

I think in both Casey and Debra's cases it's hard to report a dead, cold body that has laid there for hours while one was sleeping off a drunk and the other screwing her boyfriend. MOO

This is my first ever post so please bear with me! Just found this while browsing, had to share it!

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With all the other inconsistencies etc surrounding the parents, this is too much of a coincidence for me.

Sorry, should probably of indicated in last post what was getting me worked up! There has previously been an alleged baby abduction almost identical to this one, at Fort Bragg in 2007. Where Deborah Bradley used to live.

emmaquaz I checked out the link and my first response is WOW.

I posted about the Creed case up thread somewhere - it was stated that the baby was probably starved to death and Debbie was living in Ft Bragg at the time. As far as the man observed coming out of the woods I feel that is just anothe red herring and takes focus off of Debbie where it belongs. Now what are we going to hear as a defense - murder by blackout.

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In this interview Van Zandt says human composition can start as soon as 4 minutes after death! within
minutes!

Watched the Today show and somewhere they have a man close to a gas station surveillence camera coming out of the woods after probably taking a leak.

Now he's the guy.

Her female attorney...who seems an angry woman...is speaking out. She said none of the carpet in the bedroom has been removed?

Where the cadavar dog hit? Unless it was on a blanket and not a rug as reported.

Huh??? to that one.

I saw a picture of the police carrying out a huge rolled up carpet. As Im not good at posting photos Ill see if I can find the link.

Sorry artgal, hadn't seen ur previous post about the Creed case, but the similarities re: how the alleged intruder got in etc. are striking when it's known that Debbie has followed other missing baby cases on her comp.

I think you're right about the man coming out of woods being a mis-lead. I still think that Jeremy has already told us that Deborah did it. During that interview when he started saying 'a woman cheating on her husb..' as someone who might have taken a baby, then stopped himself. He knows what happened I'm sure of it, whether he was involved in that remains to be seen.

by artgal16 Today at 9:56 am

I saw a picture of the police carrying out a huge rolled up carpet. As Im not good at posting photos Ill see if I can find the link.

Here it is.....

Local attorney: 'We might not get the happy ending that we want.'


It has been quite a Sunday at the home where baby Lisa's parents, Deborah Bradley and Jeremy Irwin, have been staying.

The parents of baby Lisa have scaled back their media presence, but their local attorney, Cynthia Short, representing them discussed the latest developments in the case Sunday.

"My fear is that we have missed this critical time to find this baby," said Cynthia Short. "It really breaks your heart that we have been looking in the wrong direction, and as a result of that we might not get the happy ending that we want. That is what I'm sad about."

Short said one of the unfortunate things about the investigation is that the family has been deprived of information.

"When you are in crisis and one of the things that is withheld from you is information, it is devastating," said Short. "They are on a roller coaster. They are doing the best they can and holding out hope. They love this little girl. They really did. And she was a precious little girl. So they are just hanging on doing the best they can. And people are surrounding them and supporting them."

Short also said over the course of the investigation she has calculated about 40 hours of talking with police with formal and informal interviews and phone calls.

"And having met them, this young couple, they have not withheld anything good or bad about who they are. When Deborah said she had gone to get this wine. Guess what they went to the store and got video of the wine guess what that proved. She is a truth-teller, that is what that proved," said Short.

Short is thankful that the parent's home was not destroyed during the search.

"The carpet that was paraded in and out that we were allowed to see actually came from the shed at the back of the house, and it was not inside the house at all. There is no carpeting that was removed from any portion of the house. And although that search was described as the search that was supposedly going to be invasive, I was concerned for the family that I would go in and see their home destroyed...in fact there is thankfully no destruction," said Short.

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I notice she talks about the baby as if she knows its dead. She talks in the past tense.

LE has done an exceptional job in this case. I am amazed anyone can paint Deborah as a victim. Give me a break the Woman was drunk and passed out when her baby was supposedly abducted. That is child neglect. They need to arrest her.

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lindamarie wrote:LE has done an exceptional job in this case. I am amazed anyone can paint Deborah as a victim. Give me a break the Woman was drunk and passed out when her baby was supposedly abducted. That is child neglect. They need to arrest her.

Then again could that be her defense...I don't remember...I was drunk...I blacked out.

A double edged sword!

By the way that video posted way up thread of the mysterious man coming out of the woods. If you watch it there is a picture of Debra and Jeremy embracing. Very telling. They embrace for the camera. She looks up to him for reassurance and he looks away.

He is getting close to the truth. Perhaps this waiting game LE is playing is working.

Surveillance video from night girl disappeared turned over to authorities

Kansas City, Missouri (CNN) -- Friends and family gathered Sunday for an emotional prayer vigil for a missing 11-month-old Missouri girl as new surveillance video surfaced from the night Lisa Irwin disappeared.
The video, taken from a BP gas station less than two miles from the home where Lisa was last seen, shows an unidentified person walking along the road around 2:15 a.m. October 4.
The station manager, Anuj Arora, said it's unusual to see anyone walking at that time of night in the region.
Arora, who shared the video with CNN on Sunday, said he also turned it over to authorities investigating Lisa's disappearance in hopes it will help in the search for the girl.
The FBI and Kansas City police declined to comment on the video, citing the ongoing investigation.
Meanwhile Sunday, Lisa's parents, Deborah Bradley and Jeremy Irwin, were seen wiping away tears at the candlelight vigil outside their home. They wore T-shirts emblazoned with Lisa's image.
Lisa was reported missing at 4 a.m. October 4, after Jeremy Irwin came home from work to find the door unlocked, the lights on and a window that had been tampered with. Bradley said she last saw Lisa at 6:40 p.m. the night before.
A cadaver dog searching the family's home indicated a positive "hit" for the scent of a body, according to documents released Friday. The information was included in an affidavit, dated Tuesday, police filed to request a search warrant of the home. The warrant was executed Wednesday.
"The cadaver dog indicated a positive 'hit' for the scent of a deceased human in the area of the floor of Bradley's bedroom near the bed," the affidavit read.
It also said that interviews with people involved in the case "revealed conflicting information" and that Bradley told police she did not initially look for her baby behind the house because she "was afraid of what she might find."
The attorney for Lisa's parents said the release of the affidavit Friday was "unfortunate," as it could derail the search for the missing girl.
Joe Tacopina described his clients as "very shaken up and they refuse to believe anything except that she is out there and alive." He said Lisa's parents are "terrified, not for themselves, but for the welfare of their daughter."
Bradley said in an NBC interview last week that she was drunk the night the infant disappeared and that she had last seen the baby about four hours earlier than initially reported.
Bradley told NBC she is afraid she will be arrested. Police have accused her of killing Lisa, she said, and told her that she failed a lie detector test.
"I was the last one with her," a tearful Bradley said. "And from judging on how the questioning went, that's kind of a fear that I have. And the main fear with that is, if they arrest me, people are going to stop looking for her. And then I'll never see her again, and I'll never know what happened."
Asked whether he had questions about Bradley, Jeremy Irwin told NBC, "No. There's no question to be had there. I know who she is. I know the kind of mother she is."
Irwin said it's possible someone could have entered the house without Bradley hearing, as the couple's bedroom is on the opposite corner of the house from Lisa's room and Bradley sleeps with a fan at high speed.
Lisa is described as being 30 inches tall with blue eyes and blonde hair, according to police. She weighs between 26 and 30 pounds and was last seen wearing purple shorts and a purple shirt with white kittens on it.
The missing girl has two bottom teeth and a "beauty mark" on her right outer thigh, police said. At the time of her disappearance, she had a cold with a cough.
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He probably ran in there to go to the bathroom - is he a kidnapper or a baby killer? How many people kidnap babies to kill them?

by raine1953 Today at 7:58 am

This doesn't play, Raine. I click on it and nothing happens.

Gads!! I'm starting to wonder if the mother didn't have something to do with this, but the stranger male carrying a baby only in a diaper in 48 degree weather has me wondering, he has me suspicious also.Was he a guy who had no access to transportation so was walking the kidnapped baby Lisa out of her neighborhood? Is he the homeless guy w/ the bike, who hasn't been seen since Lisa disappeared?

I put no stock in how the Mom is reacting, who she is and isn't talking to, or using some things in past tense
as if her daughter is already dead. Parents of missing kids say they never give up hope. Maybe its just a slip and means nothing. Maybe when she says "we are grieving", she means grieving the loss of a child who is missing, not grieving the death of their child.

:scratch:

The homeless guy is locked up in jail. They found him about a week into the investigation. His picture and booking papers are up thread.

I am not buying a guy walking four miles carrying a baby and not one person calling LE.

The guy on the motorcycle...peace out...keeps changing his story. In the beginning he "thought" it was a baby. Now he is sure it was Baby Lisa. Really???

Neither the man in the video (who was swinging his arms rather in a carefree manner) nor the so-called man walking down the street with the baby -made any attempt to hide - does that make sense? Its all nonsense and a big distraction.

"At the time of her disappearance, she had a cold with a cough."

Overdose?

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Theories Abound About Lisa Irwin's Disappearance

9:33 a.m. CDT, October 23, 2011

Another national media outlet, with large budgets and resources, is reporting a lead in the Lisa Irwin investigation that once again, police deny.

ABC News claims Kansas City, Mo. police are looking at surveillance video from a nearby gas station, video ABC says may support the theory that Lisa Irwin was abducted from her home in the middle of the night.

However, when FOX 4 asked KCMO Police about the report and the video, police responded with an email to us, which indicated they consider these national news theories and investigations rogue and amateur, if not unhelpful.

Surveillance video obtained by ABC News comes from a BP gas station near the Irwin house. It shows a man emerging from the woods at about 2:30 a.m. although it doesn't appear he is carrying a baby.

Capt. Steve Young, Public Information Officer with the police department responded to the latest national news theory with the following email:

"I know you have to ask, but I cannot comment on details and don't want to even try keeping up with media freelance investigations."

Police have interviewed witnesses who say they saw a man carrying a baby the night Lisa disappeared. One witness says she saw this shortly after midnight, three houses away from Lisa's. Another witness saw a man with a baby almost four hours later, more than three miles from the home.

The BP gas station is approximately three-quarters of a miles from the home.

Meanwhile, billboards around the Kansas City Metro area are now flashing information about Lisa Irwin. A digital billboard on I-70 near the 435 Interchange features the words "Have You Seen Baby Lisa Irwin?" It is one of seven rotating advertisement and announcements that cycles through about every eight seconds.

The display is a donation from Lamar Advertising, which will feature Lisa on four of their boards across the metro.

Over the weekend, the parents' attorneys also went public.

New York attorney Joe Tacopina addressed questions about Deborah's drinking.

"I don't think she has an alcohol problem," Tacopina said on Fox's Judge Jeanine Pirro Show. "She has wine at night."

He also continued his refusal to answer the question about who is paying him.

"That's an attorney, client matter. I don't get into who engaged me," Tacopina said. "Who's footing my bill is irrelevant quite frankly."

FOX 4 is meeting with Deborah Bradley and Jeremy Irwin's local attorney, Cyndy Short, Sunday for an exclusive interview. Tune into FOX 4 newscasts and FOX4KC.com for the very latest.

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artgal16 wrote:Neither the man in the video (who was swinging his arms rather in a carefree manner) nor the so-called man walking down the street with the baby -made any attempt to hide - does that make sense? Its all nonsense and a big distraction.

I'm not buying it!

Cops are supposedly miffed as to how the person who took Baby Lisa got her out the window. Duh. Maybe he came IN the window and waltzed OUT the front door. Eh???? And left the lights on when he left, and the front door open and unlocked.

And after all the news coverage about this man walking with a baby that night/early morning...it's been several days, you would think this "man" with the baby, if it wasn't Lisa, would come forward and say- It was Me! That was my kid! (or whatever) The fact that nobody has come forward (I assume) tells me something is amiss.

JMO/MOO

HippyChick2 wrote:Cops are supposedly miffed as to how the person who took Baby Lisa got her out the window. Duh. Maybe he came IN the window and waltzed OUT the front door. Eh???? And left the lights on when he left, and the front door open and unlocked.

And after all the news coverage about this man walking with a baby that night/early morning...it's been several days, you would think this "man" with the baby, if it wasn't Lisa, would come forward and say- It was Me! That was my kid! (or whatever) The fact that nobody has come forward (I assume) tells me something is amiss.

JMO/MOO

Honestly I think a lot of people came forward and have told police everything they know. LE just isn't sharing all that information with us.

Heck they might have a rap sheet on motorcycle guy a mile long.

This is on body language and it shows the picture I talked about of JI and DB and how he turns away from her.

The man walking with the baby hasnt come forward because =1 he might not even exist = 2 he wasnt carrying a baby he was carrying something else.

Yesterday KCTV5 out of Kansas City confronted Lisa Irwin’s mother and father about why they have refused to speak with local media since the 10-month-old little girl disappeared 3 weeks ago. Answer: “…because we are grieving.”

Of course, the grieving hasn’t prevented them from being involved in multiple national media interviews in which Deborah didn’t have any problem talking…about herself, but not that much airtime dedicated to baby Lisa. AND, their grieving didn’t prevent them from doing a full spread in People Magazine; where once again they changed their story of the events on the night of October 3rd, morning of October 4th.

But wait…no, that’s not the reason! It appears in addition to not being able to just tell the same story twice about the most critical night in their missing baby’s life, they can’t even get their story straight on why they won’t talk to local media, which should be (right behind the KCPD) their second best chance for finding their baby! According to their attorney, Cyndy Short, their reason for not speaking to local media yesterday was:

because they’re afraid of the attention the missing baby case has brought to their family.

You’ve got to be kidding me! No, really, what I just meant was YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. When your 10-month-old baby is missing the ONLY thing you want is attention to your baby’s case. That’s it. You WANT EVERYONE TO KNOW. And did you think going on every national morning program, Judge Jeanine’s program, and the cover of People were NOT going to bring attention to YOU (not so much Lisa, but lots to you! )

These people are making me nuts.

Meanwhile all the hired guns for the Irwins are working overtime. Joe Tacopina, Bill Stanton and local attorney Cyndy Short have been on the airways in lieu of Deborah and Jeremy now that Tacopina shut them down on their media blitz. Cyndy Short was seen walking all through the Irwin home after it was released by the KCPD once their 17 hour search of the property ended. Then she announced….”it was all for show”. That’s right, now instead of claiming that KCPD is hell-bent to put this whole thing on the parents, she’s now accusing them of not taking enough things into evidence “if a crime had been committed”.

Which is a real silly statement Cyndy…since your clients are the one who said the only crime committed in that house was kidnapping and cell phone theft. I’m not sure just how much you think the KCPD needs to drag out of that home to get evidence for those two crimes.

During Cyndy’s walk-through the box of wine Deborah killed off on October 3rd was still sitting on the kitchen stove top. Cyndy pulled the plastic bag out of the box revealing the bag was EMPTY. She then said that most likely it wasn’t empty and that the investigators probably drained the remaining contents to measure what was left.

Have you lost your mind, Cyndy??? Who the hell do you think you’re kidding? If the investigators wanted to take the remaining wine into evidence…they would have taken the whole box. They would NOT have tampered with evidence, permanently changing it, by draining the contents of the bag and then said…look what we found in the bag, trust us! Your client (and according to her! ) one other woman killed an entire box of wine. Just stop it, Cyndy. And she did it with three small children under her care, one of which has been missing ever since that night.

hmmmm

Also, the evolving defense/PR team for the Irwin’s is spinning the recently released BP gas station surveillance video big-time. They want to point to it as some type of game-changing evidence that someone spirited baby Lisa away and walked all over Kansas City in the middle of the night. Unfortunately, the video does not match the other eye witness accounts of seeing a man carrying a baby. The witnesses who have come forward on seeing a man carrying a baby wearing nothing but a diaper (the baby, not the man..heh) have described him as having a white t-shirt and dark-colored jeans or sweat pants. The person seen in the BP video appears to be clothed in a white or extremely light-colored shirt and pants.

My personal opinion still sways toward Lisa dying from a tragic accident. After analyzing the crib mattress position from still-shots captured from news video in the home, it appears the mattress was not low enough below the railing of the bed (measures out to be about 20 inches between top of mattress and top of railing). Safety recommendations for babies are that they should not be sleeping in a crib where the height between the mattress and railing is less than three-quarters of their height. Lisa is described to be 30 inches tall, so she should have had a minimum rail height of 22-1/2 inches. In addition, the bumper was still in the crib which means Lisa could have stepped up on it and gotten even higher up in the bed.

Debbie, I think you got crap-faced, didn’t check on your baby girl again after seeing her standing up in her crib, she fell out and you found her dead hours later. That makes you neglectful, but it doesn’t make you a murderer. But let me tell you something, letting your baby girl’s body rot away in an undisclosed hidey-hole and letting animals tear it asunder, or the fish in the river eat it just to keep yourself from having to admit you sucked at being a mom that night….would, in fact, make you a truly despicable person worthy of a severe amount of loathing.

Of course, we’ve learned in the past 3 years that being reviled and viewed as a disgusting soul-less creature appears to be acceptable to some women if it means they get their own freedom and don’t have to admit they did something wrong.

Then again, I could be wrong…you could’ve just sucked at being a mom that night and somebody stole her…and your cell phones. Lord knows falling back on lost cell phones and make-believe baby-nappers has worked before!

Three weeks today…and no baby Lisa.
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Well, he MUST exist, if two separate witnessed described him the exact same way.

OK so lets say he was just some guy carrying, I dunno, a ham or something. Still wouldn't you think he would come forward and say, Hey it was just me taking a ham home. So police could turn their focus on more promising leads and just eliminate him? Certainly everyone in the area has heard about this, whether they want to or not. I am sure it's all over the news and newspaper. JMO

He doesnt exist - thats my thoughts - Years ago my daughter lost her cat and I put an ad in the paper about a lost cat - you cannot believe the calls I got - one woman called to tell me she saw the cat hit by a
car and it was picked up by animal control in my city - I called every animal control in the city = it wasnt true
people insert themselves into cases all the time - the police know this - people confess to things they didnt do - sorry but I dont buy it - probably some man just like her husband going to work - after all they were up and her husband was out the door because he was going to work someone else could have been as well and he could have been holding something completely innocent -

Something im trying to wrap my head around is this. If it was a stranger that took baby Lisa.
1 how would they know there was a baby there to take?
2 Would someone leave all the lights on if they were trying to steal a baby? (unless someone knew her mother was drunk and passed out)
3 If a stranger was seen with a basically naked baby in the middle of the night wouldnt that be more suspicious than leaving her in her clothes until they got to where they were going?
4 would a stranger take the time to look around the house for cell phones to take them?
These things just make no sense to me. I think for a stranger to come into this house and take a baby in the middle of the night there would have had to be some planning to it and some common sense thinking.

The position of the mattress in the crib is extremely important - if you believe that Debbie truly was passed out - and Lisa was in the crib and restless - after all she had put down fairly early at 6:30 - she probably did wake up at least once. Would she have just stayed quietly in her crib? Did she cry and no one came to her or did she try to climb out and fall? My daugher could climb out of her crib at 11 months.
My only thought is could such a fall have really killed her?